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	<title>Comments on: Rounded Corners 216 &#8211; Hug a developer</title>
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		<title>By: Guignol</title>
		<link>http://labnotes.org/2008/08/28/rounded-corners-216-hug-a-developer/comment-page-1/#comment-141688</link>
		<dc:creator>Guignol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:13:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labnotes.org/?p=1173#comment-141688</guid>
		<description>The application syncs to your Instapaper account and downloads the pages to your phone for later offline reading.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The application syncs to your Instapaper account and downloads the pages to your phone for later offline reading.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Geoffrey O&#8217;Brien</title>
		<link>http://labnotes.org/2008/08/28/rounded-corners-216-hug-a-developer/comment-page-1/#comment-141422</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoffrey O&#8217;Brien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Oct 2008 14:30:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labnotes.org/?p=1173#comment-141422</guid>
		<description>[...] Hug A Developer     No Comments so far  Leave a comment   RSS feed for comments on this post. TrackBack URI    Leave a comment Line and paragraph breaks automatic, e-mail address never displayed, HTML allowed: &lt;a href=&quot;&quot; title=&quot;&quot;&gt; &lt;abbr title=&quot;&quot;&gt; &lt;acronym title=&quot;&quot;&gt; &lt;b&gt; &lt;blockquote cite=&quot;&quot;&gt; &lt;cite&gt; &lt;code&gt; &lt;del datetime=&quot;&quot;&gt; &lt;em&gt; &lt;i&gt; &lt;q cite=&quot;&quot;&gt; &lt;strike&gt; &lt;strong&gt; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Hug A Developer     No Comments so far  Leave a comment   RSS feed for comments on this post. TrackBack URI    Leave a comment Line and paragraph breaks automatic, e-mail address never displayed, HTML allowed: &lt;a href=&quot;&quot; title=&quot;&quot;&gt; &lt;abbr title=&quot;&quot;&gt; &lt;acronym title=&quot;&quot;&gt; &lt;b&gt; &lt;blockquote cite=&quot;&quot;&gt; &lt;cite&gt; &lt;code&gt; &lt;del datetime=&quot;&quot;&gt; &lt;em&gt; &lt;i&gt; &lt;q cite=&quot;&quot;&gt; &lt;strike&gt; &lt;strong&gt; [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Assaf</title>
		<link>http://labnotes.org/2008/08/28/rounded-corners-216-hug-a-developer/comment-page-1/#comment-141283</link>
		<dc:creator>Assaf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Sep 2008 02:48:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labnotes.org/?p=1173#comment-141283</guid>
		<description>Sky is not falling. I&#039;m not a believer in OneTrueArch, constraints are there for a reason, which means some things are impossible (or unwarranted) by design. But it&#039;s reaffirming that by following REST -- which means hypermedia, not the Four Verbs -- we got more done under the HTTP pub/sub architecture.

It always comes back to the database, doesn&#039;t it?

I thought XMPP allows you to hold session/presence in memory. If you go down, you just re-establish the session and ask for presence information again.  Not so?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sky is not falling. I&#8217;m not a believer in OneTrueArch, constraints are there for a reason, which means some things are impossible (or unwarranted) by design. But it&#8217;s reaffirming that by following REST &#8212; which means hypermedia, not the Four Verbs &#8212; we got more done under the HTTP pub/sub architecture.</p>
<p>It always comes back to the database, doesn&#8217;t it?</p>
<p>I thought XMPP allows you to hold session/presence in memory. If you go down, you just re-establish the session and ask for presence information again.  Not so?</p>
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		<title>By: Bill de hOra</title>
		<link>http://labnotes.org/2008/08/28/rounded-corners-216-hug-a-developer/comment-page-1/#comment-141274</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill de hOra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Aug 2008 07:39:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labnotes.org/?p=1173#comment-141274</guid>
		<description>XMPP won&#039;t fail for basic point to point messaging, but the idea of a link to a feed of etags gives new weight to HATEOS. You can read this as the sky&#039;s not falling in (again), or another hack that gets us a Four More Years.

Where XMPP is operationally hard is when you have a lot of clients (50,000+). HTTP LBs don&#039;t work well for that at all, and become bottlenecks on open connections. The only answer seems to be to get said LBs off the path. Which puts us back to about 1996, the web&#039;s stone age, and begs the question - how to tell a client to bind to a node in the cluster without pushing load balancing logic down to the client and exposing your server topology? DNS SRV isn&#039;t the complete answer; good for federations, not so much for clustering. Also even if you could figure out binding, the XMPP stacks themselves don&#039;t seem to have clustering entirely figured out (openfire and djabberd possibly being further along there). I&#039;ve been surprised at where some highly performant servers start to buckle. 

And here&#039;s the kicker - if a cluster communications swarm doesn&#039;t kill you, the database writes quickly start to dominate how many people can connect, and well before sockets management does. All the stacks I&#039;ve seen are writing on connection (to setup presence and sessions). So, Yet Another Database Scaling Problem, and around we go.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>XMPP won&#8217;t fail for basic point to point messaging, but the idea of a link to a feed of etags gives new weight to HATEOS. You can read this as the sky&#8217;s not falling in (again), or another hack that gets us a Four More Years.</p>
<p>Where XMPP is operationally hard is when you have a lot of clients (50,000+). HTTP LBs don&#8217;t work well for that at all, and become bottlenecks on open connections. The only answer seems to be to get said LBs off the path. Which puts us back to about 1996, the web&#8217;s stone age, and begs the question &#8211; how to tell a client to bind to a node in the cluster without pushing load balancing logic down to the client and exposing your server topology? DNS SRV isn&#8217;t the complete answer; good for federations, not so much for clustering. Also even if you could figure out binding, the XMPP stacks themselves don&#8217;t seem to have clustering entirely figured out (openfire and djabberd possibly being further along there). I&#8217;ve been surprised at where some highly performant servers start to buckle. </p>
<p>And here&#8217;s the kicker &#8211; if a cluster communications swarm doesn&#8217;t kill you, the database writes quickly start to dominate how many people can connect, and well before sockets management does. All the stacks I&#8217;ve seen are writing on connection (to setup presence and sessions). So, Yet Another Database Scaling Problem, and around we go.</p>
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		<title>By: Assaf</title>
		<link>http://labnotes.org/2008/08/28/rounded-corners-216-hug-a-developer/comment-page-1/#comment-141268</link>
		<dc:creator>Assaf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2008 17:40:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labnotes.org/?p=1173#comment-141268</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ll give instapaper a try.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll give instapaper a try.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Rhett</title>
		<link>http://labnotes.org/2008/08/28/rounded-corners-216-hug-a-developer/comment-page-1/#comment-141264</link>
		<dc:creator>Rhett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2008 12:24:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labnotes.org/?p=1173#comment-141264</guid>
		<description>Re: Read it later.  I use a service called Instapaper ( http://www.instapaper.com/ ) which uses a javascript bookmarklet to mark pages for later reading.  It doesn&#039;t have as many features on the record side as that Firefox plugin, but it does have a paired iPhone application.  The application syncs to your Instapaper account and downloads the pages to your phone for later offline reading.  Pretty cool.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: Read it later.  I use a service called Instapaper ( <a href="http://www.instapaper.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.instapaper.com/</a> ) which uses a javascript bookmarklet to mark pages for later reading.  It doesn&#8217;t have as many features on the record side as that Firefox plugin, but it does have a paired iPhone application.  The application syncs to your Instapaper account and downloads the pages to your phone for later offline reading.  Pretty cool.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Assaf</title>
		<link>http://labnotes.org/2008/08/28/rounded-corners-216-hug-a-developer/comment-page-1/#comment-141258</link>
		<dc:creator>Assaf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 21:08:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labnotes.org/?p=1173#comment-141258</guid>
		<description>(IF XMPP FAILS): The failure was no surprise to developers who realized the complexity of the stack, or were aware that it has only been field tested with non-demanding applications like instant messaging. Al3x of Twitter Co. said, &quot;Perhaps we should have words about this, sir.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(IF XMPP FAILS): The failure was no surprise to developers who realized the complexity of the stack, or were aware that it has only been field tested with non-demanding applications like instant messaging. Al3x of Twitter Co. said, &#8220;Perhaps we should have words about this, sir.&#8221;</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: al3x</title>
		<link>http://labnotes.org/2008/08/28/rounded-corners-216-hug-a-developer/comment-page-1/#comment-141255</link>
		<dc:creator>al3x</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 19:47:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.labnotes.org/?p=1173#comment-141255</guid>
		<description>&quot;a “streaming problem”, for which we know XMPP is a damn good protocol&quot;.  Do we really now?  Perhaps we should have words about this, sir.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;a “streaming problem”, for which we know XMPP is a damn good protocol&#8221;.  Do we really now?  Perhaps we should have words about this, sir.</p>
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