Comments on: Timing is everything http://labnotes.org/2007/02/08/timing-is-everything/ Sun, 15 Jan 2012 21:29:54 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: dnl2ba http://labnotes.org/2007/02/08/timing-is-everything/comment-page-1/#comment-137597 dnl2ba Sun, 11 Feb 2007 07:28:19 +0000 http://blog.labnotes.org/2007/02/08/timing-is-everything/#comment-137597 Right, and on that, I'm with you 100%. Time = bugs = time. If you have to write more code to get something done, you have that many more opportunities to botch something. Then you've got a bug, and then someone has to notice it, and then you have to find it, and then you have to fix it. Typically, code spends much more time running than being written, so that's another reason for leaning toward optimization. But then you start adding in maintenance and feature addition, and the total opportunities for making more bugs proliferate. There's that quote about premature optimization... Right, and on that, I’m with you 100%.

Time = bugs = time. If you have to write more code to get something done, you have that many more opportunities to botch something. Then you’ve got a bug, and then someone has to notice it, and then you have to find it, and then you have to fix it.

Typically, code spends much more time running than being written, so that’s another reason for leaning toward optimization. But then you start adding in maintenance and feature addition, and the total opportunities for making more bugs proliferate. There’s that quote about premature optimization…

]]> By: Assaf http://labnotes.org/2007/02/08/timing-is-everything/comment-page-1/#comment-137595 Assaf Sun, 11 Feb 2007 06:52:22 +0000 http://blog.labnotes.org/2007/02/08/timing-is-everything/#comment-137595 dnl2ba, Applets are all kinds of wrong. But nobody, well, nobody I know of nor any site I use, uses them, so I'm going to preted they don't exist. For the record, I'm talking about Java 1.5 or 1.6 running outside the browser. I develop with either one. As for startup time ... If the only thing you measure is the individual HTTP request/response handling, you're going to optimize for that alone. If what you measure is the overall picture, which includes development, testing, maintenance, iterating with users to add/improve features (aka Agile), you're going to optimize for that. You wonder why so many people are moving from Java to Ruby? One of the reasons is that the Java world is obsessed with optimizing for the individual HTTP request/response cycle, instead of looking at the big picture. Read my post again. Notice how all the use cases I put there deal with writing -- not running -- code. dnl2ba,

Applets are all kinds of wrong. But nobody, well, nobody I know of nor any site I use, uses them, so I’m going to preted they don’t exist. For the record, I’m talking about Java 1.5 or 1.6 running outside the browser. I develop with either one.

As for startup time …

If the only thing you measure is the individual HTTP request/response handling, you’re going to optimize for that alone.

If what you measure is the overall picture, which includes development, testing, maintenance, iterating with users to add/improve features (aka Agile), you’re going to optimize for that.

You wonder why so many people are moving from Java to Ruby? One of the reasons is that the Java world is obsessed with optimizing for the individual HTTP request/response cycle, instead of looking at the big picture.

Read my post again. Notice how all the use cases I put there deal with writing — not running — code.

]]> By: dnl2ba http://labnotes.org/2007/02/08/timing-is-everything/comment-page-1/#comment-137593 dnl2ba Sun, 11 Feb 2007 06:35:52 +0000 http://blog.labnotes.org/2007/02/08/timing-is-everything/#comment-137593 I should add, after reading your most recent post, that I (as a user) don't have to distinguish between a Java plugin and the JVM itself. I see "Java" on the screen while my browser is frozen for up to 10 seconds. The experience sucks. I should add, after reading your most recent post, that I (as a user) don’t have to distinguish between a Java plugin and the JVM itself. I see “Java” on the screen while my browser is frozen for up to 10 seconds. The experience sucks.

]]> By: dnl2ba http://labnotes.org/2007/02/08/timing-is-everything/comment-page-1/#comment-137592 dnl2ba Sun, 11 Feb 2007 06:33:39 +0000 http://blog.labnotes.org/2007/02/08/timing-is-everything/#comment-137592 My point was that it doesn't matter if it takes little or lots of time to start if the start time isn't infringing on the user interaction. It's different when the program runs on the user's machine. Firefox lurches to a stop for 4-8 seconds while a Java applet fires up, and I find myself avoiding sites that have them. My point was that it doesn’t matter if it takes little or lots of time to start if the start time isn’t infringing on the user interaction.

It’s different when the program runs on the user’s machine. Firefox lurches to a stop for 4-8 seconds while a Java applet fires up, and I find myself avoiding sites that have them.

]]> By: Assaf http://labnotes.org/2007/02/08/timing-is-everything/comment-page-1/#comment-137591 Assaf Sun, 11 Feb 2007 05:54:35 +0000 http://blog.labnotes.org/2007/02/08/timing-is-everything/#comment-137591 dnl2ba, How slow exactly is the Java startup time? Measure it. You're in for a surprise. My point was that, in the Java world, we're trying to look at the language through a special lens intent to make it competitive with C/C++. We do that at the expense of looking at real world requirements, we hold on to believes instead of fact checking. And to all who commented, why not run a little benchmark and note the numbers. You're trying to justify Java, where in fact there's nothing to apologize for. It's plenty fast. <a href="http://blog.labnotes.org/2007/02/10/how-well-do-you-know-java/">How well do you know Java</a>? dnl2ba,

How slow exactly is the Java startup time?

Measure it. You’re in for a surprise.

My point was that, in the Java world, we’re trying to look at the language through a special lens intent to make it competitive with C/C++. We do that at the expense of looking at real world requirements, we hold on to believes instead of fact checking.

And to all who commented, why not run a little benchmark and note the numbers. You’re trying to justify Java, where in fact there’s nothing to apologize for. It’s plenty fast.

How well do you know Java?

]]> By: Labnotes » How well do you know Java? http://labnotes.org/2007/02/08/timing-is-everything/comment-page-1/#comment-137590 Labnotes » How well do you know Java? Sun, 11 Feb 2007 05:41:37 +0000 http://blog.labnotes.org/2007/02/08/timing-is-everything/#comment-137590 [...] recent post, Timing is everything, started a mini-controversy. One that can teach you a lot about where Java is coming from, and [...] [...] recent post, Timing is everything, started a mini-controversy. One that can teach you a lot about where Java is coming from, and [...]

]]> By: dnl2ba http://labnotes.org/2007/02/08/timing-is-everything/comment-page-1/#comment-137589 dnl2ba Sun, 11 Feb 2007 02:23:26 +0000 http://blog.labnotes.org/2007/02/08/timing-is-everything/#comment-137589 Drat. "Are for the *same* tasks" is obviously what I meant. Drat. “Are for the *same* tasks” is obviously what I meant.

]]> By: dnl2ba http://labnotes.org/2007/02/08/timing-is-everything/comment-page-1/#comment-137588 dnl2ba Sun, 11 Feb 2007 02:23:04 +0000 http://blog.labnotes.org/2007/02/08/timing-is-everything/#comment-137588 Users of my company's web service don't notice the JVM startup time. It started long before they visited. They notice how long it takes to serve pages, and they'll notice if the server got pwned because it couldn't scale serve to millions of users. Would you argue that Java and Ruby are for the tasks because they're both programming languages? Users of my company’s web service don’t notice the JVM startup time. It started long before they visited. They notice how long it takes to serve pages, and they’ll notice if the server got pwned because it couldn’t scale serve to millions of users.

Would you argue that Java and Ruby are for the tasks because they’re both programming languages?

]]> By: SOB: Scion Of Backronymics » Java benchmarks, enterprisey apps, and the future of Ruby (is Smalltalk) http://labnotes.org/2007/02/08/timing-is-everything/comment-page-1/#comment-137583 SOB: Scion Of Backronymics » Java benchmarks, enterprisey apps, and the future of Ruby (is Smalltalk) Sat, 10 Feb 2007 08:06:17 +0000 http://blog.labnotes.org/2007/02/08/timing-is-everything/#comment-137583 [...] over at Labnotes recently wrote that timing is everything. I read that a couple days ago when it was first posted, but the discussion in comments has [...] [...] over at Labnotes recently wrote that timing is everything. I read that a couple days ago when it was first posted, but the discussion in comments has [...]

]]> By: Chipping the web - Rosa Parks Highway -- Chip’s Quips http://labnotes.org/2007/02/08/timing-is-everything/comment-page-1/#comment-137582 Chipping the web - Rosa Parks Highway -- Chip’s Quips Sat, 10 Feb 2007 01:10:47 +0000 http://blog.labnotes.org/2007/02/08/timing-is-everything/#comment-137582 [...] goes for timing strategies, [...] [...] goes for timing strategies, [...]

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